Mandy Rhodes has an audience with Cardinal Keith O’Brien and finds politics and religion struggling to compete in the cassock
Lordy, Lordy, Lordy… Christ on a bike. There are three things that
people in polite society don’t discuss: sex, politics and religion.
Cardinal Keith O’Brien talks about all three, a lot. He also throws in
another of life’s great taboos; abortion, which according to his most
recent outburst he would consider a sin akin to murder. And this is all
before morning coffee.
He describes Scotland as being in a moral decline and denounces the
former Executive for its liberal approach to sex education which he
says, was tantamount to encouraging state-sponsored child abuse or even
prostitution among minors. On civil partnerships, gay adoption and
basically, any sexual relations outwith the confines of a conventional
heterosexual marriage, he views as an abhorrence.
Life, according to O’Brien, makes for uncomfortable listening but
when you have God on your side and live life according to 10 hard and
fast rules, then there is no fear, just righteousness.
O’Brien is no stranger to controversy. He has sparked outrage over
his previous demands that the Muslim community should apologise for
terrorist atrocities, has hit headlines with his views on sectarian
violence and courted furious debate about the political influence of
the Catholic Church when he let it be known that he would not be voting
Labour in the Scottish elections. And most recently, he found himself
splashed all over the national newspapers for choosing the 40th
anniversary of the 1967
Abortion Act to describe levels of abortion as the equivalent to two
Dunblane massacres a day.
“Thou shalt not kill,” he preached from the pulpit of St Mary’s Cathedral in Edinburgh. “We are killing – in our country – the equivalent of a classroom of kids every single day.
We are killing – in our country – the equivalent of a classroom of kids every single day. 
” His words were, at best, deemed distasteful and he was roundly denounced for being out of step with modern-day practices. The Independent newspaper billed him as the poster boy for bigotry and questioned whether this was a man fit to lead a sensible debate on abortion and columnists labelled him as a petty, evil, zealot.
But hang on a mo’. He is the leader of Scotland’s 800,000 or so Catholics and as such, O’Brien makes no apology for his views. In his big book, abortion is evil and how do you argue with the man who has the ear of God? debate with the cardinal is not on a level playing field. And while I may endeavour to present another side, another approach, to his many claims, opinions and views, he responds with a look of bored detachment. He knows he is right because he has read a book that tells him he is. He absolutely and resolutely believes that life should be led according to the 10 commandments. And while he might present this view of life as just a simple, moral code, which allows him, he believes, a legitimate right to talk about everything from nuclear weapons to sexual practices, it brings him into regular conflict with the reality of a Scotland where rates of teenage pregnancy, abortion and STDs have us sitting at the top of many European sexual unhealth leagues. And while he might argue that that is because of a decline in morals and an increase in secularism and say, ‘I told you so’, some would argue that this state of affairs is directly attributable to the Catholic Church’s interference in sanitising government sex education strategies. However, ideologically, there is no shifting him. And while he might try and pull the, ‘I’m just a humble wee priest’ line, politically speaking, he knows he has enormous influence. After all, this is a man that represents more people than all the MSPs’ political parties put together. O’Brien may claim to be not interested in party politics but politically, the party is in his front room and unlike conventional politicians who can cut and dice their views to capture the odd vote, with O’Brien, there is no room to manoeuvre. He works from the scriptures and practises what he preaches. His way, is the right way. Full stop. And who can argue with that? I try…
On Africa – he has travelled widely on that continent – we discuss the merits of the use of condoms to prevent the spread of HIV/Aids which has reached an epidemic of biblical proportions. He says condoms would encourage promiscuity. I say, levels of promiscuity couldn’t get much higher and this is about preventing deaths. He says, offering condoms would be debasing to women. Not if it saves their lives, say I. He gets that stony look, which means we have reached an impasse.
On teenage pregnancy, we actually agree that young people should be taught about the theory of sex within the context of relationships based on trust, love and respect. However, we disagree on the reality and whether young people can then make their own choices about whether to follow through on the practical.
He says that those in the “sexual health business” are pushing a “sinister” agenda and trying to sneak explicit material into nursery and primary schools against the wishes of teachers. “The Section 28 debate could become a mere flicker compared to the protests of parents . . . rightly appalled at the idea of pre-pubescent, far less pre-school children being provided with graphic and intimate sexual instruction. Should such material be used, it would amount to the state-sponsored sexual abuse of minors.
“I feel sorry for this young generation growing up,” he says. “We’ve really got to put the brakes on and start with the youngest generations and give simple lessons in our primary schools of what sex is all about, and it’s not what happened in the 1960s when the pill came in and folk would do exactly what they wanted, when they wanted and as you know, we are paying for all that freedom now and regretting it.
“It is awful for me if I am out there, coming back home from the cathedral after a service or something like that, and seeing youngsters hanging about, drinking and knowing it won’t be long before they are otherwise engaged, if you know what I mean – and not in a loving relationship at all.
“It’s gone rampant and do we just dish out more condoms or more pills or whatever and hope kids will somehow get the realisation that sex is about a real, loving relationship with one woman or one man and live true to that, despite the ups and downs in married life?”
h, come on, he’s not always been a priest. He’s had hormones running wild.
“Sex wasn’t all that important when I was growing up, initially in the north of Ireland then in the West of Scotland and then Edinburgh. Looking back on it now, my naivety would make youngsters’ minds nowadays boggle. you didn’t really know what S…E…X was
Looking back on it now, my naivety would make youngsters’ minds nowadays boggle. you didn’t really know what S…E…X was
. you know how simple the films were, old cowboy films and that sort of thing, so the whole culture has changed and in many ways, the standards have been drastically lowered, I think, and the churches have to speak out more and more and give a moral lead if that is not being given by the Executive.”
Why does he think young people can respect what he says, when they know there has been, what they might consider, an artificial constraint put upon his own sexuality?
“Well, I am in and out of schools all the time speaking to youngsters and I don’t think they believe it is an artificial constraint. It is one I chose voluntarily. I applied to be a priest when I was 12 but was turned down. I applied when I was 17 and was turned down so I went to university. So youngsters would have a certain regard for me that I was at university and I got a degree in maths and science and qualified as a teacher.”
Because you’ve lived out in the outside world?
“Yes, and I had to make a choice. When I was at university, I wasn’t going around with a collar like this, I was an ordinary student at the students’ union and all the rest of it but I had made my choice that I was going to be a celibate priest and I held a vow of celibacy over those years.”
So does that mean, without prying too much, that you had “relationships”?
“I had no intimate sexual relationships. I had pals.”
On gay adoption and civil partnerships, he says that popular opinion is with him. “People, I think, are innately conservative with a small ‘c’ in Scotland. you know, so many of them like the stability which marriage and family life brings to a community and brings to society and these moves were a complete disruption of that. So many other things at this present time seem to be a complete disruption of what we are used to in Scotland.” He offers no other evidence to support his view.
The problem for someone like me – a woman who is, at best, an agnostic – is that O’Brien’s views do not stand up to the scrutiny of real life as I know it and also, I find many of the attitudes essentially sexist. When I say that the problem in Africa with the Catholic Church’s view about pushing chasteness, not condoms, is that it is the women who end up dying because it is their husbands who are the ones who are being unfaithful and who refuse to protect themselves. All condoned by the church’s preachings. He repeats his belief that abstinence will cure all.
Frustrated, I throw in the fact that the Catholic Church has been responsible for the cover up of some outrageous acts of child sexual abuse and that only in the past few weeks, has been exposed for ignoring the fact that one of its own priests, Father Gerry Nugent, was a drunk and a womaniser and whose failings were only revealed because of his part in the murder trial of Peter Tobin, despite the fact that the church had received anonymous tip offs about the priest’s inappropriate behaviour. I get the impassive look.
Our interview is in two parts. At our first meeting, just days before the Scottish parliamentary elections, I arrive at the Bishop’s House in Edinburgh’s Morningside and am shown into a lounge by the housekeeper. It’s all very Father Tedesque: swirly carpets, jumble-sale curtains and enough cheap knick knacks to fill a bring-and-buy sale for weeks. If fussiness can be considered a style statement then the Bishop’s House is tres chic. There’s pictures of O’Brien with the Pope, snaps of him with parishioners, with nuns and with lots of children, images from around the world, framed caricatures – one that depicts a priest saying, ‘kiss my ring’…, religious prints and those twee cards that have puppies on the front, accompanied by a sickly-sweet message about friendship or love. There’s a table set for four for lunch, with two cheap, cut-glass wine glasses (red and white presumably) at each setting and individual chrome salt and pepper sets for each diner – mmmm, tasteful. There’s a smell of boiled cabbage and it’s only 10am.
The housekeeper brings me in a pot of tea and a plate with a selection of Jacob’s Club biscuits.
Half an hour later, the cardinal graces me with his presence, apologising profusely but he had been called to do a “television thing”. I know it’s been said before, but it’s hard to equate the fire and brimstone headlines with this be-cardi-ganned, 70-year-old with the warm smile and bad hearing. We move into the green room, – so-called because of the green and chocolate swirly carpet, I presume.
I spend the next hour and a half in these unlikely surroundings with a man who is celibate, talking about sex. Just as I fall into a surreal abyss and he leaves to speak to a visiting group of school children, I subtly shift the interview focus to politics. do you think you are a natural politician?
“Oh God, no! No, I just see myself as a churchman whose life sometimes get caught up in politics.” He departs to administer words of great wisdom to the young. I am flushed.
Round two: A week after the Scottish elections. O’Brien has just returned from a European tour of London, Germany and Rome meeting with, among others, Tony Blair, Angela Merkel, Romano Prodi, the Pope and various other financial and political advisors to express his views about world poverty.
“Presenting the case for the poor of the world is something that the church can do with [a] legitimate voice and I can do with a legitimate voice, having seen so many areas of suffering in the world and I think it is to my advantage that I’m not an economist or a sociologist or an ecologist. I’m just trying to be a good priest.
“I think it is a pastoral thing for me to be able to say to these political leaders, like I remember saying in Italy to one of the finance ministers, ‘I don’t understand. you are very, very clever men in the treasury. Obviously, otherwise, you wouldn’t have this position. you’ve to work out 0.7 per cent of your budget, now that’s less than 1 per cent of your budget for the poor of the world. That’s the target. That’s a tiny, tiny slice of your cake. Why can you not put that aside first and then decide on military, food, education, hospitals and all the rest of it?’ They’ve no answer to that. It baffles me as a normal pastoral priest. Consequently, I think it is not about me being a politician, I know I’m not Conservative, Labour or SNP, I’m just a pastoral priest and that’s a strength, I think Mandy.”
What did he make of the results of the Scottish Parliament election?
“In some ways, I was surprised at the election and then, this is really sitting on the fence, in some ways, I wasn’t surprised. I knew that there had been a lot of disgruntled people in our country, not just with the Labour Party in general but with regards to specific issues. I was aware of a greater sense of people in Scotland wanting more of a say in their affairs. Now I can think of various issues, obviously, Trident was a major one because we were told that maybe 80 per cent of the Scottish people didn’t want Trident replaced but that was just dismissed. I think of the adoption issue by gay couples, again, the Scottish Executive has said they would make special arrangements when it was a faith issue but didn’t and there was talk of having almost, like a conscience clause with regard to abortion, you know, if it is a Catholic doctor, he just feels he can’t abort so another doctor takes his place but Westminster said no. It was as if Scotland wasn’t grown up enough to deal with something like Trident, adoption or abortion and I think voters were fed up of that.”
I suggest that some of the church dogma is outdated and that it doesn’t apply to some of the bigger political issues that concern voters.
“I would say that the church has a dogmatic view, full stop, about poverty,” he retorts. I feel humble. “Much of the Old Testament and the New Testament is about poverty. ‘Here the cry of the poor and turn your swords into ploughs’, all these phrases, let alone all that Jesus said about loving God and loving your neighbour, and that is the gospel that I’ve got to preach, that I want to preach, and that I get great satisfaction out of preaching.
“Whether it is about married life or partnership or adoption or poverty or climate change or whatever it is, what I teach and preach, and what the church in general does is based on the scriptures, not off the top of my head. Everything I do has got to be based on that. Not my own feelings and there is nothing in modern life that can’t be fitted in to the scriptures.”
How does he feel this applies to the Scottish Parliament and his relationship with it?
“In many ways, people have been disappointed with what has come out of the Scottish Parliament so far in its life and they are looking for a greater lead from our Scottish Parliament and Executive. They want Scotland to be a better country. They want Scotland to be a better place for the sake of themselves and for the sake of their children. They want everything that goes with that, whether it is good schools, good hospitals, good roads, good housing. Trident, I see as one of the major things which will have to be considered and basically, the whole issue of what matters are devolved to the Scottish Parliament. I’m not saying the SNP should immediately be shouting for independence but all parties, all thinking peoples, should be considering, is Scotland grown up enough to have a mind of its own with regard to certain issues which will be facing the Scottish Executive, the Scottish Parliament over the years to come?” Would he like more powers devolved then?
“Yes, what I would like to see is more issues devolved to Scotland. Powers over things like Trident, is an obvious one. Things like the laws with regard to abortion and so on. Tony Blair promised ages ago that [that] would be examined and the time limit for abortions changed because of babies surviving longer in the womb and that sort of thing but it hasn’t happened and I believe we should have powers over that in Scotland.”
The relationship between Church and State is an on-going balancing act but the day before the interview, the new First Minister had phoned O’Brien to put him in touch with the family of Madeline McCann, after Alex Salmond had met Maddie’s aunt at a Celtic match and she had asked for the cardinal’s number. She clearly believed that the church held the balance of power in that particular heart-wrenching struggle.
The irony is not lost on O’Brien. “Sure, that’s the way that politics and religion can come together. Just to help people.”
One person has commented on this article. 1. O'Brien is a Red Herring
Chris, Unregistered This is not really a question of Cardinal O'Brien's influence - for the views that he expresses are not his, but those of a Church. The influence of the Church is not granted by some devious manipulation of democracy, but granted by the fact that lots of people take it seriously. To argue with O'Brien about these issues is pointless - as the article notes, since he is not going to renounce his faith, and there is no serious suggestion of reinterpretation. The only option is to break the habit of leaving religious faith a private opinion, by challenging the faith itself. If O'Brien is a theologian he may be able to defend himself - if not, the best bet for liberals is to ignore him. |
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