Mandy Rhodes interviews the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth, John Swinney, about balancing the books

John Swinney looks a little actuarial at the best of times but last month he looked as miserable as a bank manager that had had his assets frozen. The reason for his grave disposition was, of course, Westminster. As he joined the First Minister to explain to the media how Scotland had just been served the worst financial settlement since devolution, his frustration at having his fingers permanently crossed that UK ministers would deliver what he needed to run Scotland was only too obvious. Today, despite the fact that it is now up to him to start juggling the money and allocate cash to the various government departments, he seems remarkably chipper.

Nine days from now he will announce his budget and with a 0.5 per cent increase on the financial handout from the Chancellor, he has already prepared us for the worst. But will it be that bad or is it a clever ploy by the SNP to predict the worse-case scenario and then deliver the goods – heroes one and all? At the moment, he is giving no secrets away but given that this is a man who has consistently said that the route to independence is to build a successful economy, he will be keen to ensure that this budget will be efficient, allows manifesto pledges to be met and encourages Scotland to grow. What rabbits will be pulled out of the hat that will allow the SNP Government to say, ‘look what we have done despite the actions of a government based in England’? Doesn’t it just provide him with a convenient fall guy for the SNP not meeting manifesto commitments?

“I think any dispassionate person would look at the settlement and agree that this settlement is not comparable to previous years. We’ve got a 0.5 per cent increase in this financial year. We’ve never had anything like that before. Some of the McConnell figures were 11.5 per cent in real terms so we’re in a totally different climate and much tighter climate than was ever foreseen before the Scottish parliamentary elections, so we have to operate within that context and the decisions the Cabinet takes will be shared with Parliament later in November.”

Does he see that the public might not understand the subtlety of where he might apportion blame if services have to be cut?

“I think the public will understand the Government’s ability to spend public money wisely and effectively. The contrast between this pitiful financial allocationand some of the other indicators of Scottisheconomic health and wellbeing whichinvolves a phenomenal contribution ofour revenue to the UK Government over the next six years is acute. I think people can make their judgement about what conclusions and consequences should be made from that situation.”

As the temperature rises, it is obvious that the normally calm and collected Cabinet Secretary finds the whole process of having to be allocated money by the UK Government totally degrading.

“It just runs totally contrary to everything I feel and want to do for Scotland. It makes the painful point that we are waiting for somebody else to decide what we can do. And if there is anything that captures what I am politically, that’s it. Why should we wait for anyone else? We live in this country, we have the right to make this country a successful business, we can do it and we will put everything we’ve got into trying to do that within the scope of what’s available to us but yes, it really offends me that I’ve got to wait for somebody else to say, ‘here’s what you’re getting’.”

It’s a rare flash of anger from the man that has managed to engender cross-party and civil service respect for being…nice… and if anyone is going to work some economic magic, it could be him. This is a man who has been on an incredible journey of self-discovery; as a teenage SNP protégé, a loyal party apparatchik, a shadow member of Cabinet, reluctant leader, sheepish resigner following electoral defeat at home and abroad and the man who was ultimately sent to the back benches by the woman – Nicola Sturgeon – who had originally campaigned for him to be leader. A lesser man would have been emasculated by the process but Swinney appeared to grow with it!

He admits that he never really relished being leader and says in a William Hague-esque revelation that he doesn’t believe he had the full skill set to lead but is a natural lieutenant. He says he has no desire to ever be leader again. Maybe it’s true, maybe it isn’t, but this is a man who seems incredibly happy within his own skin and almost ecstatic to be running the country’s finances. As the man who identified that the only realistic path to independence was to get the economy right, he could also be the man who will deliver far more as a Cabinet Secretary than he ever did as leader of the party.

  “I am not the leader of the SNP and didn’t really expect to be leader of the SNP at any stage so it came as a bit of a surprise to me. I enjoyed it, I gave it my best shot but having taken the decision to leave the leadership, I have to say that on the other side of it, I felt a huge burden lifting off my shoulders and I think the type of role that I perform now is one for which I am much more suited. “You are right, that time could have been dreadful. I could have asked myself, ‘how do I come out of the front door ever again?’ because it is such a body blow but I feel that the manner of my decision to stand down and how I decided to proceed with that was dealt with properly, from my point of view. I could have toughed it out and retained the leadership of the SNP, I have no doubt about that in my mind, but I decided I was going, stood up, did the press conference myself, answered the questions, left on my terms.”

And did he feel any acrimony to Alex over that? “None whatsoever. Throughout my leadership Alex was, even in the difficult dark times, a close friend and ally and he encouraged me to tough it out, you know. He gave me ideas about how to tough it out when it was really difficult so, none whatsoever.”

None of this should underestimate Swinney’s ambition, desire to be in power or ultimately to remove Scotland from the UK equation. He lives and breathes independence even if it means taking the gradual, softly-softly catchee-monkey approach.

“I never really liked to be in opposition. It didn’t sit very well with me at all. And after about four minutes in Government, how even more uncomfortably it sat with me. So I suppose that I sometimes try to say to myself, losing the 1992 election personally was quite a good thing because it made me understand how precious it was to win an election when I won in 1997. I suppose I could use the same analogy about years in opposition, it made me appreciate and understand the opportunities you have in Government.”

To that end, Swinney and others have led a long and determined charm offensive on the business community in Scotland, which he says has been part of a well thought out strategy to get the foundations right for a successful economy.

“The first thing somebody would say, looking at the Government, is that there is a purpose, and the purpose is to increase Scotland’s level of sustainable economic growth. Getting the economy right is absolutely fundamental to what we are doing and our whole way of operation is about achieving that.

“Business wants the country to be prosperous and it wants the Government to be taking decisions that will make the country prosperous. So I think in that sense, one of the very important pieces of alignment, or re-alignment, that was achieved in the run up to the election campaign, and in the run up, I mean a long number of years before the election, was effectively saying to the business community, ‘we really cannot go on like this’. We have to deliver higher economic performance and we need a government that will support you in that exercise.’ It’s not to say that government delivers the new economic activity, that’s not what I’m saying at all but the business community must know that here is a government that is on the same wavelength, taking forward a range of issues that will create a more prosperous climate and in a sense, that goes right the way through this administration to our purpose, which is to create sustainable economic growth for Scotland.”

The business community has, of course, responded well to the fact that Swinney and his departmental colleagues have business experience – Swinney worked as a financial adviser for Scottish Amicable and Jim Mather is a self-made millionaire, rich enough to lend his own party a six-figure sum – which is in sharp contrast to the professional backgrounds of the last administration. How important is that?

“Well, I think it is important and I think people in the business community feel very confident that there is, at the heart of the administration, a number of people who have private-sector business experience, and that it’s not just me, it’s a whole load of different people including the First Minister. The fact that we have had private-sector business experience means we are aware of the issues, the processes, the dynamics of the business environment and that is a very powerful asset for the Government.”

And does he think that makes them more credible than their predecessors?

An emphatic, “Yes.”

Why?

“I think because our Government has been much more aware of some of the issues and the challenges that the business community faces and much more engaged in trying to find solutions, which is a much more realistic and credible message than the world-is-going-to-end scenario presented by Labour.”

But has that winning over happened at the expense of glossing over the prospect of independence?

“No, I think it’s part and parcel of the argument because what’s at the heart of our economic argument is about ensuring that we take sensible decisions and that we create a set of conditions that are right for the development of the Scottish economy and if that’s your view about how our economic policy should be driven, then you shouldn’t really care much about the constitutional structures. My belief is that you need to have the levers of independence to deliver those economic conditions. So I think it’s an implicit part of the argument which is saying that, if we want to create the right economic conditions in Scotland, then we must have the flexibility to pull all the levers to do that.”

Salmond has described Swinney as a good organiser; if he organises the economy for him, that could also win independence. That’s clearly why he has given him the role. How highly does he rate his contribution?

“I’m one of his Cabinet members so I obviously think that I have a significant contribution to make and I’m loving doing that in support of the First Minister who, I think, has utterly transformed the country already and we’ve only been in office for five months. The country will never be the same again after this and so it’s a great privilege and I am absolutely thrilled to be doing this.”

Swinney’s appointment to the Cabinet was more a process of osmosis than invitation. In typical Salmond style, there was no fawning or flattery, simply an understanding that as Swinney was already in place and fulfilling the role prior to the election, then that is what he would continue to do – no questions asked.

Salmond had asked Swinney to be his financial spokesman before the election and to take forward preliminary discussions with the civil service in the event of an electoral win. Swinney had just got back home from his delayed count and was watching the television when the phone rang.

“Before anyone spoke, I heard a helicopter and I thought well, there’s only one person I know who’s getting a helicopter today and he’s phoning me. It was Alex and he basically said to me, ‘get to Edinburgh; I need to get you talking to the civil service this afternoon’. So I got myself up, got in the car and drove to Edinburgh. And for the next fortnight, I basically worked with the civil service on the economy.”

But that call was made before the election result was known?

Swinney smiles, “I know, but he knew what was happening. There was a conversation sometime after the election when he just sort of said to me, ‘of course you’ll be doing that role’ and that was it and here we are.” He says that minority administration is a “good position to be in“ because it means that there has to be a “clarity about what ministers take forward” and means that they have to utilise their “powers of persuasion”. Is he surprised at the record so far?

“I suppose I look over at those who used to be in Government and I am not at all surprised by the calibre of our performance or of our team. I always knew that we had strength and depth and you look at our ministerial team and even beyond, and you see a lot of other people who would be perfectly able to be ministers, very, very able to be ministers.

“I had to sit there for years and be told that we would never be in Government. That we were not up to the job. Well, I’m sorry; I knew that to be a lot of rubbish because I knew the strengths of my colleagues that I was sitting beside

I had to sit there for years and be told that we would never be in Government. That we were not up to the job. Well, I’m sorry; I knew that to be a lot of rubbish because I knew the strengths of my colleagues that I was sitting beside

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